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8/9/2019 Lati Rinpoche: Oral Debate
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Lati Rinbochay:Oral Debate
Translated by Daniel Perdue based on Jeffrey Hopkins’s classes
© Jeffrey Hopkins, 1999. No portion may be reproduced without
written permission.
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Colors, White and ed
!pril ", 19#$
%ape &ide 1 Jeffrey' He has a different format for (ettin( back to the route in which
one has accepted the basic conse)uence *that is, the +dod route.
-adhi inbochay /s whate0er is a color necessarily red
2pponent / accept the per0asion.
/t follows that whate0er is a color is necessarily red.
3 / accept it.
/t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a white reli(ious conch, is
red because of bein( a color.
3 %he reason is not established.
/t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a white reli(ious conch, is acolor because of bein( suitable as a hue.
3 Whate0er is suitable as a hue is not necessarily a color.
/t follows that whate0er is suitable as a hue is necessarily a color
because 5that which is suitable as a hue5 is the definition of color.
3 / accept that whate0er is suitable as a hue is necessarily a color.
/t follows that whate0er is suitable as a hue is necessarily a color.
3 / accept it.
/t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a white reli(ious conch, is a
color because of bein( suitable as a hue.3 / accept it.
/t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a white reli(ious conch, is
red because of bein( a color.
3 / accept it.
/t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a white reli(ious conch, is
not red because of bein( white.
3 Whate0er is white is not necessarily not red.
/t follows that whate0er is white is necessarily not red because
there is no common locus of the two, white and red.
3 %he reason that there is no common locus of the two, white andred, is not established.
/t follows that there is no common locus of the two, white and red
because the two, white and red, are mutually e6clusi0e.
Jeffrey He says that you could (o on to say that the reason is not
established here, but this is where the book stops and if you do (o on
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it will harm you. 7ou may (et confused.
3 / accept it.
/t follows that the two, white and red, are mutually e6clusi0e.
3 / accept it.
/t follows that there is no common locus of the two, white and red.
3 / accept it.
/t follows that whate0er is white is necessarily not red.
3 / accept it.
/t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a white reli(ious conch, is
not red because of bein( white.
3 / accept it.
/t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a white reli(ious conch, is
red because of bein( a color.
3 %here is no per0asion.
/t follows that whate0er is a color is not necessarily red.3 / accept it.
%sa8 !ma:in(8 ;inished8< What is the difference between bein( red
and bein( a color
3 %here are three possibilities.
/t follows that there are not three possibilities =osit somethin(
which is both *&omethin( which is both is the sub4ect the color of a
ruby. %his implies that you can (o on to say that it is this and it is
that. /t will be alri(ht if you say, 5%he sub4ect, the color of a red
flower.5 ;or the second possibility whate0er is red is necessarily a
color %hen, whate0er is a color is not necessarily red. ;or instance<
the sub4ect the color of a white reli(ious conch. &omethin( which is
neither one nor the other is the sub4ect the form of a cairn. &o there
are the three possibilities. %here is somethin( which is both %here is
somethin( which is one and is not the other. 2ne says, 5Which is
necessarily the other Which is not necessarily the other =osit
somethin( which is one and not the other.5 %here is somethin( which
is neither one nor the other. When one says 5possibility5 *mu, one is
sayin( 5limit5 *mtha+. 2ne thin( that mi(ht be confusin( here is that
one says 5/t follows that there are not three possibilities.5 %his is ane6pression that is the opposite of the truth. Here there
are certainly three possibilities. >ut when one debates one will say, 5/t
follows that it is not that5 or 5/t follows that that does not e6ist.5 2ne
is tryin( to trap the opponent. &o / say, 5/t follows that there are not
three possibilities. =osit somethin( which is both.5 2nce you say that
there are the three possibilities, the Challen(er will play with you and
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say that there are not the three possibilities He will say, 5=osit
somethin( which is both5 or 5=osit the three possibilities.5 He is 4ust
playin( out his trap on you.
?@>!%@ %W2
Challen(er /s whate0er is a color necessarily red
?efender / accept it
C /t follows that whate0er is a color is necessarily red
? / accept it.
C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a white reli(ious conch, is
red because of bein( a color.
? %he reason is not established.
C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a white reli(ious conch, is a
color because of bein( suitable as a hue.
? %here is no per0asion.C &pell it out.
? Whate0er is suitable as a hue is not necessarily a color.
C /t follows that whate0er is suitable as a hue is necessarily a color
because 5suitable as a hue5 is the definition of color.
? / accept it.
C /t follows that whate0er is suitable as a hue is necessarily a color.
? / accept it.
C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a white reli(ious conch, is a
color because of bein( suitable as a hue.
? / accept it.
C /t follows that the sub4ect is red because of bein( a color.
A / accept it.
C /t follows that the sub4ect is not red because of bein( white.
? %here is no per0asion.
C &pell it out.
? Whate0er is white is not necessarily not red.
C /t follows that whate0er is white is necessarily not red because
there is no common locus of the two, white and red.
? %he reason is not established.C /t follows that there is no common locus of the two, white and red,
because the two, white and red, are mutually e6clusi0e.
? / accept it.
C /t follows that the two, white and red, are mutually e6clusi0e.
? / accept it
C /t follows that there is no common locus of the two, white and red.
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? / accept it.
C /t follows that whate0er is white is necessarily not red.
? / accept it.
C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a white reli(ious conch, is
not red because of bein( white.
? / accept it.
C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a white reli(ious conch, is
red because of bein( a color.
? %here is no per0asion.
C /t follows that whate0er is a color is not necessarily red.
? / accept it.
C What is the difference between the two, red and color
? %here are three possibilities.
C =osit somethin( which is both.
? %he sub4ect. the color of a ruby *pad ma ra (a+i kha do).C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a ruby, is a color.
? / accept it.
C %he sub4ect, the color of a ruby, is a colorBB *%he ?efender has to
(i0e a reason now.
? >ecause of bein( suitable as a hue.
C /t follows that whate0er is suitable as a hue is necessarily a color.
? / accept it.
C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a ruby. is red.
? / accept it.
C %he sub4ect, the color of a ruby. is redBB
? >ecause of bein( suitable as a red hue.
C /t follows that whate0er is suitable as a red hue is necessarily red.
? / accept it.
C Now, which is necessarily the other Which is not necessarily the
other =osit somethin( which is one and not the other.
? Whate0er is red is necessarily a color. Whate0er is a color is not
necessarily red. %he sub4ect, the color of a white reli(ious conch.
C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a white reli(ious conch, is a
color.? / accept it.
C %he sub4ect, the color of a white reli(ious conch, is a colorBB
? >ecause of bein( suitable as a hue.
C /t follows that whate0er is suitable as a hue is necessarily a color.
? / accept it.
C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a white reli(ious conch, is
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not red.
? / accept it.
C %he sub4ect the color of a white reli(ious conch, is not redBB
? >ecause of bein( white.
C /t follows that whate0er is white is necessarily not red.
? / accept it.
C Now, posit somethin( which is neither one nor the other.
? %he sub4ect, a pillar.
C /t follows that the sub4ect, a pillar, is not a color.
? / accept it.
C %he sub4ect, a pillar, is not a colorBB
? >ecause of not bein( suitable as a hue.
C /t follows that whate0er is not suitable as a hue is necessarily not a
color.
? / accept itC /t follows that the sub4ect, a pillar, is not red.
? / accept it
C %he sub4ect, a pillar, is not redBB
? >ecause of not bein( a color.
C /t follows that whate0er is not a color is necessarily not red.
? / accept it.
inbochay %hat is the way. %here are three possibilities.
!pril , 19#$ probably<
inbochay !bout debate< Dany thin(s that you don+t know will be
cleared away' you will (enerate understandin(. !s your i(norance
decreases and your knowled(e increases, one by one, e0entually you
will (et to the point where you do know e0erythin( and you ha0e no
i(norance. !nother 0irtue of it is that if you are (oin( to meditate on
the 0iew or culti0ate the altruistic mind of enli(htenment, it helps you
there. /t helps to keep the mind from bein( distracted. /t helps to
keep the mind steady. !nd it keeps the mind sharp. /t helps< when
you are doin( analytic meditationon 5/5. !t that time when you aremeditatin(, doin( analytic meditation on anythin(, you will not be
(eneratin( afflictions. %here is (reat 0irtue in not (eneratin(
afflictions for an hour or half an hour. %he purpose for studyin( the
dharma is to stop the afflictions, and for howe0er lon( you can stop
them there is that much ad0anta(e.
;or the fourth possibility of somethin( which is neither one nor the
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other, it does not ha0e to be somethin( that is an e6istent. /t can be
somethin( that is a nonBe6istent. %his is somethin( that is neither, it
is not this and it is not that. >ut if there is somethin( that is an
e6istent, then you put in that.
%here are four alternati0esBBthree possibilities, four possibilities,
mutually inclusi0e, and mutually e6clusi0e. %hus, with re(ard to the
two, human and !merican, you ha0e to choose one of these four. /f
someone says that there are four possibilities, what would you posit
that is an !merican and not a human ! horse. ! horse /s a horse
an !merican /f someone says that there are three possibilities, what
do you posit as somethin( that is both %he sub4ect, Jeffrey.
C /t follows that the sub4ect, Jeffrey, is an !merican.
? / accept it.
C %he sub4ect, Jeffrey, is an !mericanBB
? >ecause of bein( born in !merica.inbochay %here is no per0asion in that. Whate0er is born in !merica
is not necessarily an !merican. %he sub4ect, an !merican deer.?
>ecause of *1 bein( a human and *" bein( born in !merica.
C /t follows that whoe0er *1 is a human and *" is born in !merica is
necessarily an !merican.
? / accept it.
C /t follows that the sub4ect, ?akBd:a( inbochay+s son *Dr. Norbu+s
son who was born in !merica, is an !merican.
? Why
C /t follows that he is because of *1 bein( a human and *" bein(
born in !merica.
? %here is no per0asion.
C %he sub4ect, the teacher, is an !mericanBB*7ou see you+0e lost and
now he is askin( for another reason.
? >ecause of *1 bein( a human and *" ha0in( !merican parents.
C /t follows that whoe0er *1 is a human and *" has !merican
parents is necessarily an !merican.
*/n the %ibetan custom one need not be born in the country, but one
must ha0e parents of that nationality. ! child born of !mericanparents in /ndia would still be an !merican.
? / accept it.
C /t follows that the sub4ect, the teacher, is a human.
? / accept it.
C %he sub4ect, the teacher, is a humanBB
? >ecause of bein( a person desi(nated in dependence upon any of
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the fi0e a((re(ates of a human.
C /t follows that whoe0er is a person desi(nated in dependence upon
any of the fi0e a((re(ates of a human is necessarily a human.
? / accept it.
C Which is necessarily the other Which is not necessarily the other
=osit somethin( which is one and not the other.
? Whoe0er is an !merican is necessarily a human. Whoe0er is a
human is not necessarily an !merican. %he sub4ect, -ati inbochay.
C /t follows that the sub4ect, -ati inbochay, is a human.
? / accept it.
C %he sub4ect -ati inbochay is a humanBB
? >ecause of bein( a %ibetan.
C /t follows that whoe0er is a %ibetan is necessarily a human.
? / accept it.
C /t follows that the sub4ect, -ati inbochay, is not an !merican? / accept it
C %he sub4ect -ati inbochay, is not an !mericanBB
? >ecause his parents are not !mericans.
C /t follows that whoe0er+s parents are not !mericans is necessarily
not an !merican.
? / accept it
C =osit somethin( which is neither.
? %he sub4ect, a sheep.
C /t follows that the sub4ect, a sheep, is not a human.
? / accept it
C %he sub4ect, a sheep, is not a humanBB
? >ecause of bein( an animal.
C /t follows that whate0er is an animal is necessarily not a human.
? / accept it.
C /t follows that the sub4ect, a sheep, is not an !merican.
? / accept it.
C %he sub4ect a sheep, is not an !mericanBB
? >ecause of not bein( a human.
C /t follows that whate0er is not a human is necessarily not an!merican.
? / accept it.
%ape &ide "
!pril , 19#$
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C /t follows that if *1 there is ascertainment of the ei(ht approaches
of per0asion of a definition and definiendum with respect to it and
color and *" it and color are established in the relationship of
definition and definiendum, then it is necessarily the definition of
color.
? / accept it.
C /t follows with respect to the sub4ect that which is suitable as a hue,
that there is no ascertainment of the ei(ht approaches of per0asion of
a definition and definiendum with respect to it and color. =osit the
mode of ascertainment.
? %here is a mode of ascertainment< because *1 whate0er is a color
is necessarily suitable as a hue, *" whate0er is suitable as a hue is
necessarily a color, *F whate0er is not a color is necessarily not
suitable as a hue, *G whate0er is not suitable as a hue is necessarily
not a color, * if color e6ists, then that which is suitable as a huenecessarily e6ists, *$ if that which is suitable as a hue e6ists, then
color necessarily e6ists, *# if color does not e6ist, then that which is
suitable as a hue necessarily does not e6ist, and * if that which is
suitable as a hue does not e6ist, then color necessarily does not e6ist.
C /t follows with respect to the sub4ect, that which is suitable as a
hue, that such is that which is posited as the mode of ascertainment
of the ei(ht approaches of per0asion of a definition and definiendum
with respect to it and color
? / accept it
C /t follows with respect to the sub4ect that which is suitable as a hue,
that it is not established in the relationship of definition and
definiendum with color. =osit the mode of establishment
? %here is a mode of establishment< because in order to ascertain
color with 0alid co(nition one must first ascertain that which is
suitable as a hue with 0alid co(nition.
C /t follows with respect to the sub4ect, that which is suitable as a hue
that such is that which is posited as the mode of establishment in the
relationship of definition and definiendum of it with color.
? / accept it.C Now, it follows that it is not so because if colors are di0ided, there
are not two.
A%he reason is not established.
C /t follows that if colors are di0ided, there are two.
? / accept it.
C /t follows that there are not two. =osit the two.
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? %here are two
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? / accept it.
%his debate is continued on %ape &ide G of !pril 9,19#$.<
C Now, it follows that it is not so because the two, definition and
di0ision, do not e6ist with respect to blue color.
? %he reason is not established.
C /t follows that the two, definition and di0ision, do e6ist with respect
to blue color.
? / accept it.
C /t follows that it is not so. =osit the definition of blue color.
? %here is a definition of blue colorecause it is the positor of blue color.
C /t follows that if somethin( is the positor of blue color, then it is
necessarily the definition of blue color.
? / accept it.
C Now, it follows that it is not so because if blue colors are di0ided,
there are not the twoBBnatural blue color and manufactured blue color.
? %he reason is not established.
C /t follows that if blue colors are di0ided, there are the twoBBnatural
blue color and manufactured blue color.
? / accept it.
C /t follows that it is not so. =osit a natural blue color.
? %here is a natural blue color< %he sub4ect, the color of 0aidurya.
C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of 0aidurya, is a natural blue
color.
? / accept it.C %he sub4ect, the color of 0aidurya. is a natural blue colorBB
? >ecause of bein( suitable as a natural blue hue.
C /t follows that whate0er is suitable as a natural blue hue is
necessarily a natural blue color.
? / accept it.
C Now, it follows that it is not so. =osit a manufactured blue color.
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? %here is a manufactured blue color.< %he sub4ect, the color of blue
cotton cloth.
C /t follows with respect to the sub4ect, the color of blue cotton cloth,
that it is a manufactured blue color.
? / accept it.
C %he sub4ect the color of blue cotton cloth is a manufactured blue
colorBB
? >ecause of bein( suitable as a manufactured blue hue.
C /t follows that whate0er is suitable as a manufactured blue hue is
necessarily a manufactured blue color.
? / accept it.
C Now, it follows that it is not so because the two, definition and
di0ision, do not e6ist with respect to yellow color.
? %he reason is not established.
C /t follows that the two, definition and di0ision, do e6ist with respectto yellow color.
? / accept it.
C /t follows that it is not so. =osit the definition of yellow color.
? %here is a definition of yellow color.< %he sub4ect, that which is
suitable as a yellow hue.
C /t follows with respect to the sub4ect, that which is suitable as a
yellow hue, that it is the definition of yellow color.
? / accept it.
C With respect to the sub4ect that which is suitable as a yellow hue, it
is the definition of yellow colorBB
? >ecause it is the re0erse of yellow color+s meanin(.
C /t follows that if somethin( is the re0erse of yellow color+s meanin(,
then it is necessarily the definition of yellow color.
? / accept it.
C Now, it follows that it is not so because if yellow colors are di0ided,
there are not the twoBBnatural yellow color and manufactured yellow
color.
? %he reason is not established.
C /t follows that if yellow colors are di0ided, there are the twoBBnatural yellow color and manufactured yellow color.
? / accept it.
C /t follows that it is not so. =osit a natural yellow color.
? %here is a natural yellow color.< %he sub4ect, the color of purified
(old.
C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of purified (old, is a natural
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yellow color.
? / accept it.
C %he sub4ect, the color of purified (old, is a natural yellow colorBB
? >ecause of bein( suitable as a natural yellow hue.
C /t follows that whate0er is suitable as a natural yellow hue is
necessarily a natural yellow color.
? / accept it.
C Now, it follows that it is not so. =osit a manufactured yellow color.
? %here is a manufactured yellow colorecause of bein( suitable as a manufactured yellow hue.
C /t follows that whate0er is suitable as a manufactured yellow hue is
necessarily a manufactured yellow color.
? / accept it.
C Now, it follows that it is not so because the two, definition and
di0ision, do not e6ist with respect to white color.
? %he reason is not established.
C /t follows that the two, definition and di0ision, do e6ist with respect
to white color.
? / accept it.
C /t follows that it is not so. ;irst, posit the definition of white color.
? %here is a definition of white colorecause it is the positor of white color.C /t follows that if somethin( is the positor of white color, then it is
necessarily the definition of white color.
? / accept it.
C Now, it follows that it is not so because if white colors are di0ided
there are not the twoBBnatural white color and manufactured white
color.
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? %he reason is not established.
C /t follows that if white colors are di0ided, there are the twoBBnatural
white color and manufactured white color.
? / accept it.
C /t follows that it is not so. =osit a natural white color.
? %here is a natural white colorecause of bein( suitable as a natural white hue.
C /t follows that whate0er is suitable as a natural white hue is
necessarily a natural white color.? / accept it .
C Now, it follows that it is not so. =osit a manufactured white color.
? %here is a manufactured white colorecause of bein( suitable as a manufactured white hue.
C /t follows that whate0er is suitable as a manufactured white hue is
necessarily a manufactured white color.
? / accept it.
C Now, it follows that it is not so because the two, definition and
di0ision, do not e6ist with respect to red color.
? %he reason is not established.
C /t follows that the two, definition and di0ision, do e6ist with respect
to red color.
? / accept it.C /t follows that it is not so. =osit the definition of red color.
? %here is a definition of red color
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C With respect to the sub4ect, that which is suitable as a red hue it is
the definition of red colorBB
? >ecause it is the triply )ualified substantial e6istent of red color.
C /t follows that if somethin( is the triply )ualified substantial
e6istent of red color, then it is necessarily the definition of red color.
? / accept it.
C Now, it follows that it is not so because if red colors are di0ided,
there are not the twoBBnatural red color and manufactured red color.
? %he reason is not established.
C /t follows that if red colors are di0ided, there are the twoBBnatural
red color and manufactured red color.
? / accept it.
C Now, it follows that it is not so. =osit a natural red color.
? %here is a natural red coloruddha
!mitayus.C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of the >uddha !mitayus, is a
natural red color.
? / accept it.
C %he sub4ect, the color of the >uddha !mitayus, is a natural red
colorBB
? >ecause of bein( suitable as a natural red hue.
C /t follows that whate0er is suitable as a natural red hue is
necessarily a natural red color.
? / accept it.
C Now, it follows that it is not so. =osit a manufactured red color.
? %here is a manufactured red colorecause of bein( suitable as a manufactured red hue.
C /t follows that whate0er is suitable as a manufactured red hue is
necessarily a manufactured red color.? / accept it.
C Now, it follows that it is not so because the two, definition and
di0ision, do not e6ist with respect to secondary color.
? %he reason is not established.
C /t follows that the two, definition and di0ision, do e6ist with respect
to secondary color.
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? / accept it.
C Now, it follows that it is not so. =osit the definition of secondary
color.
? %here is a definition of secondary colorecause secondary color is its definiendum.
C /t follows that if secondary color is its definiendum, then it is
necessarily the definition of secondary color.
? / accept it.
C Now, it follows that it is not so. /f secondary colors are di0ided, howmany are there
? %here are ei(ht.
C /t follows that there are not ei(ht. =osit the ei(ht.
? %here are ei(ht
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the color of blueBblackBsmoke.
C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of blueBblack smoke, is a smoke
color which is that.
? / accept it.
C %he sub4ect, the color of blueBblack smoke, is a smoke color which
is that.
? >ecause of bein( suitable as a smoke hue which is that.
C /t follows that whate0er is suitable as a smoke hue which is that is
necessarily a smoke color which is that.
? / accept it.
C Now, it follows that it is not so. =osit a dust color which is that.
? %here is a dust color which is a secondary colorecause of bein( suitable as a dust hue which is that.
C /t follows that whate0er is suitable as a dust hue which is that is
necessarily a dust color which is that.
? / accept it.
C Now, it follows that it is not so. =osit a mist color which is that.
? %here is a mist color which is a secondary colorecause of bein( suitable as a mist hue which is that.
C /t follows that whate0er is suitable as a mist hue which is that is
necessarily a mist color which is that.
? / accept it.
C Now, it follows that it is not so. =osit an illumination color which isthat.
? %here is an illumination color which is a secondary color
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C %he sub4ect, the whitish color of illumination, is an illumination
which is thatBB
? >ecause of bein( suitable as an illumination hue which is that.
C /t follows that whate0er is suitable as an illumination hue which is
that is necessarily an illumination color which is that.
? / accept it.
C Now, it follows that it is not so. =osit a darkness color which is that.
? %here is a darkness color which is a secondary colorecause of bein( suitable as a darkness hue which is that.C /t follows that whate0er is suitable as a darkness hue which is that
is necessarily a darkness color which is that.
? / accept it.
C Now, it follows that it is not so. =osit a shadow color which is that.
? %here is a shadow color which is a secondary colorecause of bein( suitable as a shadow hue which is that.
C /t follows that whate0er is suitable as a shadow hue which is that is
necessarily a shadow color which is that.
? / accept it.
C Now, it follows that it is not so. =osit a sunli(ht color which is that.
? %here is a sunli(ht color which is a secondary colorecause of bein( suitable as a sunli(ht hue which is that.
C /t follows that whate0er is suitable as a sunli(ht hue which is that is
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*7ou can posit any of these four.
C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a white cloud, is a primary
color.
? / accept it.
C %he sub4ect, the color of a white cloud, is a primary colorBB
? >ecause of bein( suitable as a primary hue.
C /t follows that if somethin( is suitable as a primary hue, then it is
necessarily a primary color.
? / accept it.
C /t follows with respect to the sub4ect, the color of a white cloud,
that it is a cloud color.
? / accept it.
C With respect to the sub4ect, the color of a white cloud, it is a cloud
colorBB
? >ecause of bein( suitable as a cloud hue.C /t follows that if somethin( is suitable as a cloud hue, then it is
necessarily a cloud color.
? / accept it.
C Now, posit somethin( which is a primary color and is not a cloud
color.
? %here is somethin( which is a primary color and is not a cloud
colorecause it is white.
C /t follows that if somethin( is white, then it is necessarily a primary
color.
? / accept it.
C /t follows with respect to the sub4ect, the color of a white flower,
that it is not a cloud color.
? / accept it.C With respect to the sub4ect, the color of a white flower, it is not a
cloud colorBB
? >ecause it is a flower color.
C /t follows that if somethin( is a flower color. then it is necessarily
not a cloud color.
? / accept it.
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C Now, posit somethin( which is a cloud color and is not a primary
color.
? %here is somethin( which is a cloud color and is not a a primary
colorecause it is suitable as a cloud hue.
C /t follows that if somethin( is suitable as a cloud hue, then it is
necessarily a cloud color.
? / accept it.
C /t follows with respect to the sub4ect, the color of an oran(e cloud,
that it is not a primary color.? / accept it.
C With respect to the sub4ect, the color of an oran(e cloud, it is not a
primary colorBB
? >ecause it is a secondary color.
C /t follows that if somethin( is a secondary color, then it is
necessarily not a primary color.
? / accept it.
C Now, posit somethin( which is neither one nor the other.
? %here is somethin( which is neither a cloud color nor a primary
colorecause it is not suitable as a primary hue.
C /t follows that if somethin( is not suitable as a primary hue, then it
is necessarily not a primary color.
? / accept it.C /t follows with respect to the sub4ect, the color of smoke, that it is
not a cloud color.
? / accept it.
C With respect to the sub4ect, the color of smoke, it is not a cloud
colorBB
? >ecause it is not suitable as a cloud hue.
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C /t follows that if somethin( is not suitable as a cloud hue, then it is
necessarily not a cloud color.
? / accept it. %he color of sunli(ht is a color of illumination, but
whate0er is a color of illuminatin( need not be the color of sunli(ht.
%here is the color of the illumination of li(htnin( and the color of
illumination of moonli(ht which
are not colors of sunli(ht.
/n collo)uial %ibetan we say, 5%hen...5 *anBnos, deBnas, but when
debatin( we say, 5Now,...5 *da as in the e6pression, 5Now, it follows
that it is not so.5
/n trainin( new monks they are always first tau(ht to recite the
debates out loud because that brin(s e0erythin( to(ether. /f one 4ust
reads, the meanin( does not come to(ether and e0erythin( remainsscattered.
When monks are debatin(, they clap their hands to(ether. %he
ri(ht hand is method and the left hand is wisdom. %he clappin( of the
hands to(ether symboli:es a union of method and wisdom. /n
dependence upon the practice of a path of a union of method and
wisdom one is liberatin( oneself from all of cyclic e6istence and
drawin( others up to the path of omniscience. %here are 0essels or
channels of wisdom in the wrists, and when one claps these ha0e to
touch. When these two channels of wisdom meet, this (enerates
wisdom. %hat is its symboli:ation.
When you practice debate' you should learn how to clap in this
way. 2nly the Challen(er claps his hands durin( the debate, and he
only claps once at the end of whate0er he is statin( to the ?efender.
2f course, there is no fault in knowin( how to clap in debate. %hen if
you ha0e to do it somewhere, you will know how. 2therwise, / doubt
that it is suitable e0erywhere. =eople mi(ht think that it is 0ery
beautiful. %here are schools of definitions bein( established in 0arious
places like &wit:erland, ;rance, and so forth. /f you (o to these
places, you will ha0e to know how to clap your hands to(ether indebate. 2therwise, you 4ust will not know it.
;rom %ape &ide F of !pril #. 19#$<
/t is not necessary to proceed throu(h a debate as in the former
case when debate !.1 was first done. 2ne need not always follow the
route in which the ?efender first )uestions the establishment of the
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reason in the first statement of the fundamental conse)uence, 5/t
follows that the sub4ect, the color of a white reli(ious conch, is red
because of bein( a color.5 2ne may follow the route in which the
?efender first accepts the basic conse)uence. %his is then in the
opposite order from the way in which we did it before. %hus, if debate
! 1 is done in this way, the mode of procedure is as follows
C /s whate0er is a color necessarily red
? / accept it.
C /t follows that whate0er is a color is necessarily red.
? / accept it.
C %hen it follows that the sub4ect, the color of a white reli(ious conch,
is red because of bein( a color.
? / accept that the color of a white reli(ious conch is red
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C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a white reli(ious conch, is
one with the color of a white reli(ious conch.
? / accept it.
C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a white reli(ious conch, is a
color because of bein( one with the color of a white reli(ious conch.
? / accept it.
C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a white reli(ious conch, is
red because of bein( a color.
? %here is no per0asion.
C /t follows that whate0er is a color is not necessarily red.
? / accept it.
2ne may proceed as before to consider the difference between the
two principals of the debate, color and red, by way of reckonin( the
possible relationships. !nother mode of procedure at this point was
offered by inbochay.<C /f there is no per0asion, then posit a countere6ampleBBsomethin(
that is a color and is not redecause of bein( suitable as a hue.
C /t follows that whate0er is suitable as a hue is necessarily a color.
? / accept it.
C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a white reli(ious conch, is
not red.
? / accept it.
C %he sub4ect, the color of a white reli(ious conch, is not redBB
? >ecause of not bein( suitable as a red hue.
C /t follows that whate0er is not suitable as a red hue is necessarily
not red.
? / accept it
!nother format for debate !.1 results if the ?efender (i0es the
correct answer that there is no per0asion to the Challen(er+s ori(inal
)uestion. 5/s whate0er is a color necessarily red5 /f the ?efender
(i0es this correct answer at the be(innin( of the debate, there are two
possible modes of procedure correspondin( to the procedures at the
end of debate as in the former two presentations of !.1. %hese two
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are as follows
=rocedure 2ne
C /s whate0er is a color necessarily red
? %here is no per0asion.
C /f there is no per0asion. then posit somethin( that is a color and is
not redecause of bein( suitable as a hue.
C /t follows that whate0er is suitable as a hue is necessarily a color.
? / accept it.
C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a white reli(ious conch, isnot red.
? / accept it.
C %he sub4ect, the color of a white reli(ious conch, is not redBB
? >ecause of bein( white.
C /t follows that whate0er is white is necessarily not red.
? / accept it.
=rocedure %wo
C /s whate0er is a color necessarily red
? %here is no per0asion.
C /t follows that whate0er is a color is not necessarily red.
? / accept it.
C /f there is no per0asion, then what is the difference between those
two
? %here are three possibilities.
!t this point the debate proceeds as before *see pp. when the
relationships between the two principals of the debate are posited and
debated.
-ati inbochay has presented two new modes of procedure thesecond of which has two types. %he first new procedure is that in
which the ?efender accepts the basic conse)uence when it is first
stated. %hen after the Challen(er leads the ?efender back to the
second statement of the basic conse)uence, they follow the route in
which the ?efender )uestions the establishment of the reason in the
basic conse)uence. %his procedure is 4ust as before e6cept that the
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two ma4or routes of the debate are re0ersed in order. %he second new
procedure is that in which the ?efender answers correctly the
Challen(er+s ori(inal )uestion by pointin( out that there is no
per0asion. %hen within this second new way he (a0e two possible
procedures that the debate may follow.<
No matter what the ?efender answers we will know what to do.
%he mode of procedure is determined by the ?efender,s answers.
Here the 0arious procedures were applied to debate !.1, but all the
others are the same.
/f you meditate thinkin( on the debates, then you will know them
all. /f you do not remember it, then think about it and meditate on it.
7ou will know it. /f you do it with (reat stren(th for a month thinkin(
on it, then you will know a lot. /t will form well. 7ou will understand
well. %here are si(ns, of whether people understand it well or not and
you will (ain them. /f you do it well, you will become skilled,whereupon it will help a (reat many other people. &eein( you, they
will become skilled also. /t will help the country itself, which will
impro0e due to the fact that people who were not formerly skilled in
these treatises are attainin( skill in them. %here were si6 scholars
called the ornaments of the world Na(ar4una, !san(a, Easubhandhu,
?i(na(a, ?harmakarti, and !ryade0a. %hey are adornments of the
world. %hey are not called adornments for any other reason e6cept
that they were wise. /n the same way you can become the
adornments of !merica, of the West, and of the world. /f you put
(reat force into it, you can learn 0ery )uickly. 7ou do not ha0e to do it
for a lon( time. =ut (reat effort into it for a month, and you will
become 0ery skillful. We do not always ha0e to be debatin( about,
5whate0er is a color is necessarily red.5 We can think about 5whate0er
is a color is necessarily a thin( *dn)os po, bha0a.5 %he mode of
procedure is the same.
C /s whate0er is a color necessarily the color of red cloth
? %here is no per0asion.
C /f there is no per0asion. then posit somethin( that is a color and isnot the color of red cloth
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? >ecause of not bein( suitable as a red cloth hue.
C /t follows that whate0er is not suitable as a red cloth hue is
necessarily not the color of red cloth.
? / accept it.
C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a white shirt, is not a color.
? Why
C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a white shirt, is a color.
? / accept it.
C %he sub4ect, the color of a white shirt, is a colorBB
? >ecause of bein( white.
C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a white shirt, is white.
? / accept it.
C %he sub4ect, the color of a white shirt, is whiteBB
? >ecause of bein( suitable as a white hue.
C /t follows that whate0er is suitable as a white hue is necessarilywhite.
? / accept it.
C Now then *+o na is whate0er is red necessarily the color of red
cloth
? %here is no per0asion.
C =osit somethin( that is red and is not the color of red clothecause of not bein( suitable as a ruby hue.
C /t follows that whate0er is not suitable as a ruby hue is necessarily
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not the color of a ruby.
? / accept it.
C What is the difference between the two, red color and the color of a
ruby
? %here are three possibilities.
C /t follows that there are not three possibilities. =osit somethin(
which is both a red color and the color of a rubyecause of bein( suitable as a ruby hue.
C /t follows that whate0er is suitable as a ruby hue is necessarily the
color of a ruby.
? / accept it.
C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a ruby of the !merican
(o0ernment, is red.
? / accept it.
C %he sub4ect, the color of a ruby of the !merican (o0ernment, is
redBB
? >ecause of bein( a particularity of red.
C /t follows that whate0er is a particularity of red is necessarily red.
? / accept it.
C Which is necessarily the other Which is not necessarily the other
=osit somethin( which is one and not the other.
? Whate0er is the color of a ruby is necessarily red. Whate0er is red
is not necessarily the color of a ruby. %he sub4ect, the color of a red
flower.
C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a red flower, is red.? / accept it.
C %he sub4ect, the color of a red flower, is redBB
? >ecause of bein( a particularity of red.
C /t follows that whate0er is a particularity of red is necessarily red.
? / accept it.
C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a red flower, is not the color
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of a ruby.
? / accept it.
C %he sub4ect, the color of a red flower, is not the color of a rubyBB
? >ecause of not bein( suitable as a ruby hue.
C /t follows that whate0er is not suitable as a ruby hue is necessarily
not the color of a ruby.
? / accept it.
C =osit somethin( which is neither.
? %he sub4ect, the color of a white reli(ious conch.
C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a white reli(ious conch, is
not red.
? / accept it.
C %he sub4ect, the color of a white reli(ious conch, is not redBB
? >ecause of bein( white.
C /t follows that whate0er is white is necessarily not red.? / accept it.
C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a white reli(ious conch, is
not the color of a ruby.
? / accept it.
C %he sub4ect, the color of a white reli(ious conch, is not the color of
a rubyBB
? >ecause of not bein( suitable as a ruby hue.
C /t follows that whate0er is not suitable as a ruby hue is necessarily
not the color of a ruby.
? / accept it.
C Now, what is the difference between the two, the color of a ruby
and the color of a ruby of the !merican (o0ernment
? %here are three possibilities.
C /t follows that there are not three possibilities. =osit somethin(
which is both the color of a ruby and the color of a ruby of the
!merican (o0ernment
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(o0ernment, is the color of a ruby of the !merican (o0ernment.
? / accept it.
C %he sub4ect, the color of a lar(e ruby of the !merican (o0ernment,
is the color of a ruby of the !merican (o0ernmentBB
? >ecause of bein( a particularity of the color of a ruby of the
!merican (o0ernment.
C /t follows that whate0er is a particularity of the color of a ruby of
the !merican (o0ernment is necessarily the color of a ruby of the
!merican (o0ernment.
? / accept it.
C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a lar(e ruby of the !merican
(o0ernment, is the color of a ruby.
? / accept it.
C %he sub4ect, the color of a lar(e ruby of the !merican (o0ernment,
is the color of a rubyBB? >ecause of bein( suitable as a ruby hue.
C /t follows that whate0er is suitable as a ruby hue is necessarily the
color of a ruby.
? / accept it.
C Which is necessarily the other Which is not necessarily the other
=osit somethin( which is one and not the other.
? Whate0er is the color of a ruby of the !merican (o0ernment is
necessarily the color of a ruby. Whate0er is the color of a ruby is not
necessarily the color of a ruby of the !merican (o0ernment. %he
sub4ect, the color of a ruby of the /ndian (o0ernment.
C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a ruby of the /ndian
(o0ernment, is the color of a ruby.
? / accept it.
C %he sub4ect, the color of a ruby of the /ndian (o0ernment, is the
color of a rubyBB
? >ecause of bein( suitable as a ruby hue.
C /t follows that whate0er is suitable as a ruby hue is necessarily the
color of a ruby.
? / accept it.C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a ruby of the /ndian
(o0ernment, is not the color of a ruby of the !merican (o0ernment.
? / accept it
C %he sub4ect, the color of a ruby of the /ndian (o0ernment, is not the
color of a ruby of the !merican (o0ernmentBB
? >ecause of not bein( suitable as a hue of a ruby of the !merican
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(o0ernment.
C /t follows the whate0er is not suitable as a hue of a ruby of the
!merican (o0ernment is necessarily not the color of a ruby of the
!merican (o0ernment.
? / accept it.
C =osit somethin( that is neither.
? %he sub4ect, the color of purified (old.
C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of purified (old, is not the color
of a ruby.
? / accept it.
C %he sub4ect, the color of purified (old, is not the color of a rubyBB
? >ecause of not bein( suitable as a ruby hue.
C /t follows that whate0er is not suitable as a ruby hue is necessarily
not the color of a ruby.
? / accept it.C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of purified (old, is not the color
of a ruby of the !merican (o0ernment.
? / accept it.
C %he sub4ect, the color of purified (old, is not the color of a ruby of
the !merican (o0ernmentBB
? >ecause of not bein( suitable as a hue of a ruby of the !merican
(o0ernment.
C /t follows that whate0er is not suitable as a hue of a ruby of the
!merican (o0ernment is necesassarily not the color of a ruby of the
!merican (o0ernment.
? / accept it. C /s whate0er is a horse necessarily a white horse
? %here is no per0asion.
C =osit somethin( which is a horse and is not a white horseecause of bein( a particularity of horse.
C /t follows that whate0er is a particularity of horse is necessarily ahorse.
? / accept it.
C /t follows that the sub4ect, a black horse, is not a white horse.
? / accept it.
C %he sub4ect, a black horse, is not a white horseBB
? >ecause of not bein( a person desi(nated in dependence upon any
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of the fi0e a((re(ates of a white horse.
C /t follows that whate0er is not a person desi(nated in dependence
upon any of the fi0e a((re(ates of a white horse is necessarily not a
white horse.
? / accept it.
C %hen it follows that the sub4ect, a black horse, is a horse.
? / accept it.
C /t follows that the sub4ect, a black horse, is a person.
? / accept it.
C /t follows that the sub4ect, a black horse, is a nonBassociated
compositional factor.
? / accept it.
C /t follows that the sub4ect, a black horse, is not a color.
? / accept it.
C /t follows that the sub4ect, a black horse, is not black.? / accept it.
C /t follows that the sub4ect, a white horse, is not white.
? / accept it.
%ape
&ide G C /t follows that a bearded man is not a man.
? Why
C /t follows that a bearded man is a man.
? / accept it
C /t follows that a white horse is white.
? Why
C /t follows that a white horse is not white. /t follows that white
cotton cloth is not white.
? / accept it.
C /t follows that white paper is not white.
? / accept it.
C /t follows that white paper does not e6ist.
? Why
C /t follows that white paper does e6ist.
? / accept it.C /t follows that somethin( which is paper and which is white e6ists.
? / accept it.
C =osit somethin( which is paper and which is white
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C /t follows that white paper is not white.
? / accept it.
C /t follows that somethin( which is paper and which is white does
not e6ist.
? / accept it.
C 7our assertion is< finished8 /t follows that white paper does not
e6ist.
? Why
C /t follows that white paper does e6ist.
? / accept it.
C /t follows that white paper does not e6ist because somethin( which
is paper and is also white does not e6ist. /t follows that a white horse
does not e6ist because somethin( which is a horse and is also white
does not e6ist. &omethin( which is paper and is also white does not
e6ist because the two, paper and white, are mutually e6clusi0e. /tfollows that it is so because *1 whate0er is paper is necessarily an
ob4ect of touch and *" whate0er is white is necessarily a color.
&earch it out. /n0esti(ate it -earn it with the easy thin(s. When
you know the si(ns, definitions, di0isions, and so on of the easy topics,
then later on it will be easy also. Continuin( %ape &ide from !pril
1G, 19#$<
C Now, what is the difference between the two, cloud color and
secondary color
? %here are three possibilities.
C /t follows that there are not three possibilities. =osit somethin(
which is both a cloud color and a secondary color
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? / accept it.
C With respect to the sub4ect, the color of an oran(e cloud, it is a
secondary colorBB
? >ecause it is suitable as a secondary hue.
C /t follows that if somethin( is suitable as a secondary hue, then it is
necessarily a secondary color.
? / accept it.
C Now, which is necessarily the other Which is not necessarily the
other =osit somethin( which is one and not the other.
? Whate0er is a cloud color is necessarily a secondary color.
Whate0er is a secondary color is not necessarily a cloud color. %he
sub4ect, the color of blueBblack smoke.
C /t follows that whate0er is a cloud color is necessarily a secondary
color.
? / accept it.C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a white cloud, is a secondary
color because of bein( a cloud color. 7ou asserted the reason and the
per0asion.
? / accept that the color of a white cloud is a secondary color
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secondary color, do not ha0e three possibilities.
? / accept it.
C Now, what is the difference between the two, cloud color and
secondary color
? %here are four possibilities.
C 7our assertion is< finished8
%he ne6t debate which was (i0en by -ati inbochay be(ins with a
)uote from Chapter /, &hloka 13, =ada ! of the %reasury of Inowled)e
*!bhidharmakosha of Easubandhu.
C =osit the two types of form as e6pressed in the passa(e
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? >ecause of bein( suitable as a hi(h form.
C /t follows that whate0er is suitable as a hi(h form is necessarily a
hi(h form.
? / accept it.
C /t follows that it is not so. =osit a low form.
? %here is a low formecause of bein( suitable as a low form.C /t follows that whate0er is suitable as a low form is necessarily a
low form.
? / accept it.
C /t follows that it is not so. =osit a lon( form.
? %here is a lon( form
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concentration is abo0e us it is hi(h. !nd 4ust because the form of this
sphere of wind below us, is below us, it is a low form. /f one were born
into the four concentrations proceedin( up throu(h them one by one
hi(her and hi(her, it could happen that one would ha0e bi((er and
bi((er houses as one proceeded. %his could happen, but it would not
necessarily happen. When bein(s are born into those concentrations,
they are born immediately with whate0er si:e they are (oin( to ha0e
in that lifetime and their clothin( and dwellin( are produced with
them.
%he land in the first concentration is destroyed when the land is
destroyed by fire at the end of an eon. %his susceptibility to fire is a
fault. %he second concentration has a fault that makes it susceptible
to destruction by water. %he third concentration has a fault that
makes it susceptible to destruction by wind. %he fourth concentration
is immo0able. @0en when the world system is destroyed at the end ofa (reat eon, the land and so forth of the fourth concentration is not
destroyed. !ll four of the concentrations ha0e common en0ironments
in which not 4ust one but 0arious people are born on that le0el.<
Now, the two, cloud color and primary color, ha0e four possibilities.
%he two, cloud color and secondary color, ha0e four possibilities. %he
two, the color of a white cloud and primary color, ha0e three
possibilities. %he two, the color of a white cloud and secondary color,
are mutually e6clusi0e. %he two, the color of an oran(e cloud and
secondary color, ha0e three possibilities. %he two, the color of an
oran(e cloud and primary color, are mutually e6clusi0e. %he two, the
color of a flcwer and primary color, ha0e four possibilities. %he two,
the color of a flower and secondary color, ha0e four possibilities. %he
two, the color of a red flower and primary color, ha0e three
possibilities. %he two, the color of a white flower and primary color,
ha0e three possibilities. %he two, the color of a yellow flower and
primary color, ha0e three possibilities. %he two, the color of an oran(e
flower and secondary color, ha0e three possibilities. %he two, the
color of a bluish flower and secondary color, ha0e three possibilities. %he two, secondary color and primary color, are mutually e6clusi0e.
/f someone asks, 5What is the difference between secondary color and
primary color5, they are mutually e6clusi0e. !nd when he says, 5%he
two, secondary color and primary color, are mutually e6clusi0eBB5 one
must answer<
5>ecause of *1 bein( different and *" a common locus is
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not possible.5 %he debate runs like this.<
C What is the difference between the two, secondary color and
primary color
? %hey are mutually e6clusi0e.
C /t follows that the two, secondary color and primary color are
mutually e6clusi0e.
? / accept it.
C %he two, secondary color and primary color, are mutually
e6clusi0eBB
? >ecause *1 those two are different and *" a common locus is not
possible.
C /t follows that if *1 those two are different and *" a common locus
is not possible then they are necessarily mutually e6clusi0e.
? / accept it.
enerally the definition of mutual e6clusion is 5*1 they aredifferent and *" a common locus is not possible.5 %hey are different.
%hey are di0erse or indi0idual. %hey are two ob4ects which do not
ha0e a common locus. ! common locus is not possible, it does not
e6ist.<
With re(ard to two phenomena that are mutually inclusi0e
C What is the difference between the two, primary color and that
which is suitable as a primary hue
? %hey are mutually inclusi0e.
C /t follows that the two, primary color and that which is suitable as a
primary hue, are mutually inclusi0e.
? / accept it.
C %he two, primary color and that which is suitable as a primary hue,
are mutually inclusi0eBB
? >ecause *1 a common locus of those two is possible and *" there
is ascertainment of the ei(ht approaches of per0asion between
them
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two, pillar and pot, or the two, permanent phenomenon and thin(. !
common locus of either of these phenomenon with anythin( would not
be possible.<
C What is the difference between the two, colorBform and color
? %hey are mutually inclusi0e.
C /t follows that the two, colorBform and color, are mutually inclusi0e.
? / accept it.
C %he two, colorBform and color, are mutually inclusi0eBB
? >ecause *1 a common locus of those two is possible and *" there
is ascertainment of the ei(ht approaches of per0asion between
them!%@<
C Now, it follows that it is not so because if somethin( is *1 a
permanent phenomenon and *" has four possibilities with primary
color, then it necessarily does not ha0e three possibilities with
secondary color.
? %here is no per0asion.
C /f there is no per0asion, posit a countere6ampleecause there is a common locus of it and the nonBmomentary.
C /t follows that if there is a common locus of it and the nonB
momentary, then it is necessarily a permanent phenomenon.
? / accept it.
C /t follows with respect to the sub4ect, different from primary color,
that it has four possibilities with primary color.
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? / accept it.
C /t follows with respect to the sub4ect, different from primary color,
that it does not ha0e four possibilities with primary color. ;irst, posit
somethin( which is both a primary color and different from primary
coloruddha, that it is a primary color.B
? / accept it.
C With respect to the sub4ect, the color of a blue medicine >uddha it
is a primary colorBB
? >ecause it is blue.
C /t follows that if somethin( is blue, then it is necessarily a primarycolor.
? / accept it.
C /t follows with respect to the sub4ect, the color of a blue medicine
>uddha, that it is different from primary color.
? / accept it.
C With respect to the sub4ect, the color of a blue medicine >uddha, it
is different from primary colorBB
? >ecause it is di0erse from primary color.
C /t follows that if somethin( is di0erse from primary color, then it is
necessarily different from primary color.
? / accept it.
C Now, it follows that it is not so. =osit somethin( which is a primary
color and is not different from primary color.
? %here is somethin( which is a primary color and is not different
from primary colorecause it is suitable as a primary hue.
C /t follows that if somethin( is suitable as a primary hue, then it is
necessarily a primary color.
? / accept it.
C /t follows with respect to the sub4ect, primary color, that it is not
different from primary color.
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? / accept it.
C With respect to the sub4ect, primary color, it is not different from
primary colorBB
? >ecause it is one with primary color.
C /t follows that if somethin( is one with primary color then it is
necessarily not different from primary color.
? / accept it.
C Now, it follows that it is not so. =osit somethin( that is different
from primary color and is not a primary color.
? %here is somethin( that is different from primary color and is not a
primary colorecause it is mutually e6clusi0e with primary color.
C /t follows that if somethin( is mutually e6clusi0e with primary
color, then it is necessarily different from primary color.
? / accept it.
C /t follows with respect to the sub4ect, a pillar, that it is not a primary
color.
? / accept it.
C With respect to the sub4ect, a pillar, it is not a primary colorBB
? >ecause it is not a formBsource.
C /t follows that if somethin( is not a formBsource, then it is
necessarily not a primary color.
? / accept it.
C Now, it follows that it is not so. =osit somethin( which is neither a
primary color nor different from primary color
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? / accept it.
C /t follows with respect to the sub4ect, the horn of a rabbit, that it is
not different from primary color.
? / accept it.
C With respect to the sub4ect, the horn of a rabbit, it is not different
from primary colorBB
? >ecause it is ascertained as nonBe6istent.
C /t follows that if somethin( is ascertained as nonBe6istent, then it is
necessarily not different from primary color.
? / accept it.
C Now, it follows that it is not so. /t follows with respect to the
sub4ect, different from primary color, that it does not ha0e three
possibilities with secondary color. ;irst, posit somethin( which is both
a secondary color and different from primary coloruddha, that it is a secondary color.
? / accept it.
C With respect to the sub4ect, the color of a (reen !mo(asiddhi
>uddha, it is a secondary colorBB
? >ecause it is suitable as a secondary hue.
C /t follows that if somethin( is suitable as a secondary hue, then it is
necessarily a secondary color.
? / accept it.
C /t follows with respect to the sub4ect, the color of a (reen
!mo(asiddhi >uddha, that it is different from primary color.
? / accept it.
C With respect to the sub4ect, the color of a (reen !mo(asiddhi
>uddha, it is different from primary colorBB
A>ecause it is mutually e6clusi0e with primary color.
C /t follows that if somethin( is mutually e6clusi0e with primary color,
then it is necessarily different from primary color.? / accept it.
C Which is necessarily the other Which is not necessarily the other
=osit somethin( which is one and not the other.
? %here is somethin( that is one and is not the other
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%he sub4ect a hi(h form.
C /t follows with respect to the sub4ect, a hi(h form, that it is different
from primary color.
? / accept it.
C With respect to the sub4ect, a hi(h form, it is different from primary
color
? >ecause it is di0erse from primary color.
C /t follows that if somethin( is di0erse from primary color then it is
necessarily different from primary color.
? / accept it.
C /t follows with respect to the sub4ect, a hi(h form, that it is not a
secondary color.
? / accept it.
C With respect to the sub4ect, a hi(h form, it is not a secondary
colorBB? >ecause it is not a colorBform.
C /t follows that if somethin( is not a colorBform, then it is necessarily
not a secondary color.
? / accept it.
C /t follows that it is not so. =osit somethin( that is neither different
from primary color nor a secondary colorecause it is nonBe6istent.
C /t follows that if somethin( is nonBe6istent, then it is necessarily not
different from primary color.
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C With respect to the sub4ect, the son of a barren woman, it is not
different from shapeBformBB
? >ecause it is not an e6istent.
C /t follows that if somethin( is not an e6istent, then it is necessarily
not different from shapeBform.
? / accept it.
C Now, with respect to the sub4ect, different from shapeBform, it
follows that it has three possibilities with secondary color.
? / accept it.
C /t follows with respect to the sub4ect, different from shapeBform,
that it does not ha0e three possibilities with secondary color. ;irst,
posit somethin( which is both different from shapeBform and a
secondary colorecause it is a secondary color which is the two red and yellow.
C /t follows that if somethin( is a secondary color which is the two,
red and yellow, then it is necessarily a secondary color.? / accept it.
C Which is necessarily the other Which is not necessarily the other
=osit somethin( which is one and not the other.
? %here is somethin( which is one and not the other
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sub4ect, the nonBproduct space.
C /t follows with respect to the sub4ect, the nonBproduct space, that it
is different from shapeBform.
? / accept it.
C With respect to the sub4ect, the nonBproduct space, it is different
from shapeBformBB
? >ecause it is permanent.
C /t follows that if somethin( is permanent, then it is necessarily
different from shapeBform.
? / accept it.
C /t follows with respect to the sub4ect, the nonBproduct space that it
is not a secondary color.
? / accept it.
C With respect to the sub4ect, the nonBproduct space, it is not a
secondary colorBB? >ecause it is not a color.
C /t follows that if somethin( is not a color, then it is necessarily not a
secondary color.
? / accept it.
C /t follows that it is not so. =osit somethin( which is neither a
secondary color nor different from shapeBformecause it is not di0erse from shapeBform.
C /t follows that if somethin( is not di0erse from shapeBform then it is
necessarily not different from shapeBform.
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? / accept it.
C Now, it follows with respect to the sub4ect, different from shapeB
form, that it has four possibilities with shapeBform.
? / accept it.
C /t follows with respect to the sub4ect, different from shapeBform
that it does not ha0e four possibilities with shapeBform. =osit
somethin( which is both a shapeBform and different from shapeBform.
? %here is somethin( which is both a shapeBform and different from
shapeBformecause it is one of the ei(ht shapeBforms.
C /t follows that if somethin( is one of the ei(ht shapeBforms, then itis necessarily a shapeBform.
? / accept it.
C /t follows with respect to the sub4ect, a lon( form, that it is different
from shapeBform.
? / accept it.
C With respect to the sub4ect, a lon( form, it is different from shapeB
formBB
? >ecause it is di0erse from shapeBform. *2ne also mi(ht ha0e
correctly said, 5>ecause it is a particularity of shapeBform.5
C /t follows that if somethin( is di0erse from shapeBform, then it is
necessarily different from shapeBform.
? / accept it.
C =osit somethin( which is a shapeBform and is not different from
shapeBform.
? %here is somethin( which is a shapeBform and is not different from
shapeBformecause it is suitable as a shapeBform.
C /t follows that if somethin( is suitable as a shapeBform, then it is
necessarily a shapeBform.
? / accept it.
C /t follows with respect to the sub4ect, shapeBform, that it is not
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different from shapeBform.
? / accept it.
C With respect to the sub4ect, shapeBform, it is not different from
shapeBformBB
? >ecause it is one with shapeBform.
C /t follows that if somethin( is one with shapeBform, then it is
necessarily not different from shapeBform.
? / accept it.
C =osit somethin( which is different from shapeBform and is not a
shapeBform.
? %here is somethin( which is different from shapeBform and is not a
shapeBformecause it is mutually e6clusi0e with shapeBform.
C /t follows that if somethin( is mutually e6clusi0e with shapeBform,
then it is necessarily different from shapeBform.
? / accept it.
C /t follows with respect to the sub4ect, the twoBBpillar and pot, that it
is not a shapeBform.
? / accept it.
C With respect to the sub4ect, the twoBBpillar and pot, it is not a
shapeBformBB
? >ecause it is an ob4ect of touchBsource.
C /t follows that if somethin( is an ob4ect of touchBsource, then it is
necessarily not a shapeBform.
? / accept it.
C =osit somethin( which is neither a shapeBform nor different from
shapeBform
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C With respect to the sub4ect, suitable as form, it is the definition of
formBB
? >ecause it is the triply )ualified positor of form.
C /t follows that if somethin( is the triply )ualified positer of form,
then it is necessarily the definition of form.
? / accept it.
C Now, it follows that it is not so. /f forms are di0ided, how many are
there
? %here are fi0e.
C /t follows that there are not fi0e. =osit the fi0e.
? %here are fi0e types of form
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C /t follows with respect to the sub4ect, the ob4ect of hearin( of an ear
consciousness, that it is the definition of soundBsource.
? / accept it.
C With respect to the sub4ect, the ob4ect of hearin( of an ear
consciousness, it is the definition of soundBsourceBB
? >ecause it is the triply )ualified substantial e6istent of soundB
source.
C /t follows that if somethin( is the triply )ualified substantial
e6istent of soundBsource, then it is necessarily the definition of soundB
source.
? / accept it.
C /t follows that it is not so. /f soundBsources are di0ided, how many
are there
? %here are ei(ht.
C /t follows that there are not ei(ht. =osit the ei(ht.? %here are ei(ht soundBsources
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rantin( Jewel, is a pleasant sound indicatin( meanin(< to sentient
bein(s and which is arisin( from elements con4oined with
consciousnessBB
? >ecause of bein( an attracti0e *yiddu +on( ba sound indicatin(
meanin(< to sentient bein(s and which is arisinn( from elements
con4oined with consciousness.C /t follows that whate0er is an
attracti0e sound indicatin( meanin(< to sentient bein(s and which is
arisin( from elements con4oined with consciousness is necessarily a
pleasant sound indicatin( meamin(< to sentient bein(s and which is
arisin( from elements con4oined with consciousness.
? / accept it.
C Now it follows that it is not so. =osit an unpleasant sound
indicatin( meanin(< to sentient bein(s and which is arisin( from
elements con4oined with consciousness.
? %here is such a soundecause of bein( an unattracti0e sound indicatin( meanin(< to
sentient
bein(s and which is arisin( from elements con4oined with
consciousness.
C /t follows that whate0er is an unattracti0e sound indicatin(
meanin(< to sentient bein(s and whicn is arisin( from elements
con4oined with consciousness is necessarily an unpleasant sound
indicatin( -meanin(< to sentient bein(s and which is arisin( from
elements con4oined with consciousness.? / accept it
7id du +on( ba means comin( to the mind pleasant+ and
attracti0e. 2ur speech arises from a collection of thin(s includin( the
palate the ton(ue+ the throat+ and 0arious thin(s. !mon(st this
collection are the four elements. %herefore our speech arises in
dependence upon the four elements %he elements+are said to be
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con4oined with consciousness because they are con4oined with or held
by the mental continuum. 5/ndicatin( to sentient bein(s5 means that
it re0eals meanin( to sentient bein(s. /t has meanin(. /t is re0elatory
sound because it has meanin( it re0eals meanin(.<
C Now it follows that it is not so. =osit a pleasant sound not
indicatin( meanin(< to sentient bein(s and which is arisin( from
elements con4oined with consciousness.
? %here is such a soundecause of bein( an attracti0e sound not indicatin( meanin(< to
sentient bein(s and which is arisin( from elements con4oined with
consciousness
C /t follows that whate0er is an attracti0e sound not inB dicatin(
meanin(< to sentient bein(s and which is arisin( from elements
con4oined with consciousness is necessarily a pleasant sound not
indicatin( meanin(< to sentient ben(s and which is arisin( from
elements con4oined with consciousness.
? / accept it.
C Now it follows that it is not so. =osit an unpleasant sound not
indicatin( meanin(< to sentient bein(s and which is arisin( from
elements con4oined with consciousB ness.
? %here is such a sound
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sentient bein(s and which is arisin( from elements con4oined with
consciousness.
C /t follows that whate0er is an unattracti0e sound not indicatin(
meanin(A to sentient bein(s and which is arisin( from elements
con4oined with consciousness is necessarily an unpleasant sound not
indicatin( meanin(< to sentient bein(s and which is arisin( from
elements con4oined with consciousness.
? / accept it.
C Now it follows that it is not so. =osit a pleasant sound indicatin(
meanin(< to sentient bein(s and which is arisin( from elements not
con4oined with consciousness.
? %here is such a soundecause of bein( an attracti0e sound indicatin( meanin(< to
sentient bein(s and which is arisin( from elements not con4oined with
consciousness.
C /t follows that whate0er is an attracti0e sound indicatin( meanin(<
to sentient bein(s and which is arisin( from elements not con4oined
with consciousness is necessarily a pleasant sound indicatin(
-meanin(< to sentient bein(s arisin( from elements
and which is not con4oined with consciousness.
? / accept it.
C Now it follows that it is not so. =osit an unpleasant sound
indicatin( meanin(< to sentient bein(s and which is arisin( from
elements not con4oined with consciousness.? %here is such a sound
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? %here is such a sound
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? / accept it. Kncooked rice has an e)ual odor. 5@)ual5 here means
that it has little odor or none. but it has an odor that will not infect
other thin(s with its smell.<
C =osit an une)ual odor.
? %here is an une)ual odorecause of bein( obser0ed as an une)ual odor.
!lso suitable as a si(n here is+ 5because of bein( a stron( *or
powerful odor.5 !nd suitable as a sub4ect here is the odor of an
efflu0ium.<
C /t follows that whate0er is obser0ed as an une)ual odor is
necessarily an une)ual odor.
? / accept it.C Now it follows that it is not so. =osit a pleasant odor.
? %here is a pleasant odorecause of bein( an attracti0e odor.
C /t follows that whate0er is an attracti0e odor is necB essarily a
pleasant odor.
? / accept it.
C Now it follows that it is not so. =osit an unpleasant odor.
3 %here is an unpleasant odorecause of bein( an unattracti0e odor.
C Now it follows that it is not so. =osit the definition of tasteBsource.? %here is a definition of tasteBsource
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the definition of tasteBsourceBB
? >ecause of bein( the meanin( re0erse of tasteBsource.
C /t follows that whate0er is the meanin( re0erse of tasteB source is
necessarily the definition of tasteBsource.
? / accept it.
C /t follows that it is not so. /f tastes are di0ided+ how many are
there
? %here are si6.
C /t follows that there are not si6. =osit the si6.
? %here are si6 types of tastes
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? >ecause of bein( obser0ed as a sour taste.
C /t follows that whate0er is obser0ed as a sour taste is necessarily a
sour taste.
? / accept it.
C /t follows that it is not so. =osit a bitter *kha ba taste.
? %here is a bitter tasteecause of bein( obser0ed as a bitter taste.
C /t follows that whate0er is obser0ed as a bitter taste is necessarily a
bitter taste.? / accept it.
C /t follows that it is not so. =osit an astrin(ent taste.
? %here is an astrin(ent tasteecause of bein( obser0ed as an astrin(ent taste.
C /t follows that whate0er is obser0ed as an astrin(ent taste it
necessarily an astrin(ent taste.
? / accept it
C /t follows that it is not so. =osit a hot *i.e., pun(ent taste.
? %here isa hot tasteecause of bein( obser0ed as a hot taste.
C /t follows that whate0er is obser0ed as a hot taste is necessarily a
hot taste.
? / accept it.C /t follows that it is not so. =osit a salty taste.
? %here is a a salty taste
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? >ecause of bein( obser0ed as a salty taste.
C /t follows that whate0er is obser0ed as a salty taste is necessarily a
salty taste.
? / accept it.
C Now it follows that it is not so. =osit the definition of tan(ible
ob4ectBsource.
? %here is a definition of tan(ible ob4ectBsourceecause of bein( the positor of tan(ible ob4ectBsource.
C /t follows that whate0er is the positor of tan(ible ob4ectB source is
necessarily the definition of tan(ible ob4ectB source.
? / accept it.
C /t follows that it is not so. /f tan(ible ob4ectB sources are di0ided+how many are there
? %here are ele0en.
C /t follows that there are not ele0en. =osit the ele0en.
? %here are ele0en tan(ible ob4ectBsources
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tan(ible ob4ectBB >ecause of bein( a particularity of
smooth tan(ible ob4ect. /t is the same. /t will be easy.
Now comes the presentation of established bases.
@stablished >ases
C >ecause in the te6t which says+ 5>ecause there are two ob4ects of
comprehension+ there are two 0alid co(ni:ers+5 there is no
e6planation of the presentation of established bases.
? %he reason is not established
C /t follows that in the te6t which says+ 5>ecause there are
two ob4ects of comprehension+ there are two 0alid co(B ni:ers+5 there
is an e6planation of the presentation of established bases.? / accept it.
%his )uote is from the root te6t of the =ramna0arttika or
?harmakrti+s Commentary on *?i)n(a+s 5%reatise on Ealid
Co(nition.5 %he presentation of established bases
is taken from there.
@stablished >ases are not tau(ht in the same way that we did
colors. %he followin( are synonyms established bases, established by
0alid co(nition+ ob4ect of knowled(e+ that which is suitable as an ob4ect
of awareness+ e6istent. obser0ed by 0alid co(nition. pheB nomena,holder of its own entity+ ob4ect of comprehenB sion, ob4ect reali:ed by
0alid co(nition, ob4ect, ob4ect known by a mind, ob4ect of
comprehension of an e6alted knower+ ob4ect reali:ed by an e6alted
knower. %hese are mutually inclusi0e. Whate0er is one is necessarily
the other. Whate0er is the other is necessarily the one. %hey are
mutually inclusi0e because *1 a common locus is possible and *"
they are ascertained *as ha0in( the ei(ht approaches of per0asion.
;urther if *with respect to phenomena a common locus is possible
and
they are ascertained *as ha0in( the ei(ht approaches of per0asion,then they are necessarily mutually inclusi0e. !lso synonymous with
the abo0e are hidden phenomena and *its definition ob4ect reali:ed
in a hidden manner by the thou(ht apprehendin( it. When we say
that two thin(s are mutually inclusi0e+ it means that they ha0e the
same meanin(. %heir (reater and lesser per0asions are the same. !s
with re(ard to the same person+ we may say 5?an5 or 5?aniel.5 %he
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names are different, but the meanin( is the same. @6cept for a
difference of name the meanin( is the same. /t is like this for
established base, ob4ect of knowled(e, and so forth. %he names are
different, but the meanin( is the same. /f we call either name. the
person will answer. /n this way. ob4ect of knowled(e
is itself a hidden phenomenon. @stablished base is itself a hidden
phenomenon. =henomenon itself is a hidden pheB nomenon. %here
are many names, but the meanin( is the same.
Now, if established bases are di0ided, there are twoBBpermanent
phenomena and thin(s. =ermanent phenomeB non has the followin(
synonyms (enerally characteri:ed phenomenon, con0entional truth+
common locus of the nonB momentary and phenomenon, phenomenon
which is a mere imB
putation by term or thou(ht and is not established as a specifically
characteri:ed phenomenon, phenomenon which is not able to performa function ultimately. %hese are mutually inclusi0e. %hey ha0e the
same meanin(.
enerally nonBthin(, not produced, and not composed are mutually
inclusi0e. !lso included here are empty of the ability to perform a
function, not created, unsuitB able as the threeBBproduction,
destruction, and abidin(. %hese si6 are mutually inclusi0e. /f we apply
*the )ualiB fier5phenomenon to each of these+ they will still be
mutually inclusi0e. %hus. a phenomenon which is a nonB thin(,
phenomenon which is empty pf the ability to perB form a function, nonB
composed phenomenon+ phenomenon which is not suitable as the
threeBBproduction, destruction, and abidin(, nonBproduced
phenomenon, nonBcreated phenomenon, and permanent phenomenon
are all mutually inclusi0e.
Non thin( is not mutually inclusi0e with permanent phenomena. /f we
add 5phenomena5 to nonBthin(, then it will be mutually inclusi0e with
permanent phenomena. %his is because nonBthin( has two typesBB
those nonBthin(s which are permanent phenomena and those nonB
thin(s which are nonBe6istents. When we say 5phenomenon which is a
nonBthin(5+ e6cept for the permanent phenomena there are none.!lso, with nonBcomposed, there are nonBcomposed permanent
phenomena and nonBcomposed nonBe6istents. %hese are different.
NonBcomposed phenomena, howe0er, means permanent phenomena
and does not mean nonBe6istents. %he power of this word
+phenomena+ is that e6cept for permanent phenomena we do not
need any other. /f we do not put the word +phenomena+ with it, it will
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not be mutually inclusi0e with permanent phenomena.
=osit the definition of permanent phenomena. %he sub4ect, that which
is obser0ed as a common locus of phenomena and the nonB
momentary. =osit the definition of (enerally characteri:ed
phenomena. %he sub4ect, phenomena which are a mere imputation by
term or thou(ht and are not
established as specifically characteri:ed phenomena. =osit the
definition of con0entional truth. %he sub4ect, a phenomenon which is
not able to perform a function ultimately. =osit the definition of nonB
thin(. %he sub4ect, that which is empty of the ability to perform a
function. =osit the definition of phenomenon which is a nonBthin(.
%he sub4ect, phenomenon which is empty of the ability to perform a
function. =osit the definition of the nonBcomposed.
%he sub4ect, the nonBdisinte(ratin(. =osit the definition of nonB
composed phenomenon. %he sub4ect, phenomenon which is nonBdisinte(ratin(. =osit the definition of nonBcreated. %he sub4ect, the
nonBproduced.
=osit the definition of nonBcreated phenomenon. %he sub4ect, nonB
produced phenomenon.
%here are two definitions of the nonBcomposed. 2ne is the nonB
disinte(ratin(. %he other is unsuitable as the threeBBproduction,
destruction, and abidin(.
/n the study of established bases the mode of proB cedure for
debatin( is the same as that for colors. Here as before we ask for
definitions, di0isions, and illustraB tions. !s before, we say, 5=osit the
definition of estabB lished base. %hat is the definition of established
baseBB Now, how many phenomena which are mutually inclusi0e with
established base are there =osit those. Now, if estabB lished bases
are di0ided, there are not the twoBBpermanent phenomena and thin(s.
/t follows that it is not so. =osit the definition of permanent
phenomena. How many phenomena are mutually inclusi0e with
permanent phenomena5 %his is as before.
%he followin( are synonymous with thin( that which is able to
perform a function, impermanent phenomena, the momentary, thecreated, the produced, the composed, suitable as the threeBB
production, destruction, and abidin(, cause, producer, helper, effect,
the produced, the helped, specifically characteri:ed phenomena,
phenomena which are not established by